Recently, I’ve heard from a guy named Eric. If you are a regular reader you’ll see that he has commented several times on my blog and Jay’s. In fact, some of his comments are so well written and to-the-point I’m thinking he needs his own blog. I’ve chatted with him a bit on line as well. Great guy. He is married to a great girl and they have some offspring. So, here’s the deal: He is bi (but leans towards gay) and she is bi (but leans towards straight). He describes himself as “emotionally hetero, sexually homo.” I really like this.
For the last 10 months I’ve been looking for a label. Not only for myself, but for Jay as well. It’s hard to accept and believe the fact that your gay husband is really attracted to you and loves you. Honestly, it would be much easier to accept this situation if Jay had said that he has been pretending to enjoy sex with me all these years and that he has never been attracted to me at all. That, I could understand. (Don’t get me wrong – it would hurt like hell.) So maybe Jay is “emotionally hetero, sexually homo.”
I think we can learn a lot from Eric. And he’s very willing to share his advice and opinions and is never critical. He and his wife have learned how to manage a situation that I’m still trying to figure out.
If you read my previous post, you witnessed my whining and sulking about my unexpected jealousy when my husband tries to form relationships via the internet chatting sites with gay men. Sure, I agreed he should try to find a boyfriend. But now that he is actually attempting to do so, I’m not crazy about the idea. I love him so very much. I don’t want our life together to be all about what I want. I feel like the last 13 years of it have been even though I wasn’t aware of it. That’s simply not fair. But, I’m starting to realize that it might be damn near impossible to find a gay man who is willing to just be Jay’s boyfriend. Those more comfortable with their sexuality want a relationship, a partner, a husband. Something more serious than being second to me. But I don’t feel like I can be first to Jay anymore. Eric says it quite nicely:
First, there’s the issue of monogamy…… It really doesn’t matter if you’re straight or gay or bi or whatever — the average wife won’t be thrilled about her guy going off and having sex with someone else, period. It’s not a gay thing, but a monogamy thing… how many wives would be OK with their (straight) man going off and sleeping with other (straight) women……… this has nothing to do with gay or straight, it’s about fidelity in a marriage, jealousy and all sorts of other things. A woman wants to feel special, and like she can satisfy whatever your needs are.
This is a comment he made to Jay’s blog. He really seems to have it all figured out. I can tell that he is very considerate of his wife’s feeling and she of his. This makes me ask the question, is it OK to hurt your partner to fulfill your own sexual desires? I can’t think of anything to relate this to. It’s not like Jay smokes and I want him to quit because I hate it and smoking is bad for him. I don’t think homosexuality is bad and I don’t want him to quit. I just have to convince myself that what he is doing has nothing to do with me being inadequate. I’m trying to be strong. Should I hide my feelings? I don’t feel like I should because honesty means more in this relationship than it ever has.
It does not bother me to see Jay turned on by other guys. I enjoy watching him get turned on. I’m able to do it so maybe that’s why it doesn’t bother me. I’ve told him that I want to watch him with another guy. He wont’ agree to it – at least not the first time he says.
…..my wife likes girls. I like guys. It’s hot to see her with another woman. She finds it hot to see me with another man.
See? I’m not that weird. Eric’s wife likes it too. Why wouldn’t you enjoy seeing the person you love get all hot and sexy? I’m afraid it might make me want to participate, however.
But I do have to keep an eye on what I do and say, and tone things down a notch or two, because I don’t want her to feel bad as if I don’t want her and just want someone else, because that’s not the issue either and Idon’t want to send the wrong message…
…we’ve also learned that “play mates” or “friends with benefits” works far better than “dating”. You can’t have a 3-way marriage. Even if it starts out good, it just does NOT work. I hope Anginae and Jay are reading this…“dating” per se is not going to work. Because the emotional bonds that form become problematic. Humans are wired for one-to-one relationships. You can’t be out with your boyfriend all the time or else Wife gets jealous and upset (rightfully so by the way) and misses you, etc. And it’s not fair to the boyfriend because he wants to spend time with you but you have family obligations… etc. and so forth. But just good friends that get together and play around and have sexual fun & experiences, but on the level of “good friends, and playmates” is what works… Then you’re both free to invest your emotional selves in each other as a married couple.
Is this true? I feel like it’s true. I feel like it’s what is happening in our relationship, even though there has been no dating as of yet. I want him 100% emotionally. I don’t want to share that. Sometime I’ve thought I could handle all of this better if he’d just promise not to kiss anyone else. “Just save the kissing for me.” I’ve said to him. He can’t do it. He can’t make that promise. Let him fuck whoever he wants. But save the kissing for me. Kissing can be more intimate than sex don’t you agree?
…when the 3 of you play together, then it’s about the couple and sharing experiences. If Jay goes off on a “date” and/or has sex alone, then it’s about him and someone else, and Anginae is GOING to feel hurt, jealous, angry….
This guy has me pegged doesn’t he? How can he know me better than I know myself? I mean, I guess I know these things really, he’s just making me think about them enough that it’s bringing it all to the surface.
So… I get to play, but it’s “from time to time” when the situation is right, and it’s a safe, sane situation/person, and it’s the 3 of us. I do not “date” guys or go out on my own or do hookups — in my opinion that’s no different than a straight guy dating other women — it’s a marriage and fidelity issue.
Can this ever happen with us? I don’t know. Jay acts like he’s in a hurry to find this special guy. I don’t blame him for that. He’s excited about the possibility of having a boyfriend because that feels natural to him. But it belittles the relationship that we have (in my eyes). I just try to remind him that it hasn’t even been a year since he came out to me and even less time since I’ve been able to accept the idea of what he wants and needs. I don’t think he realizes how very new all of this is to me. He’s known about it for quite some time. I need some time to let it really sink in.
So, if you are still reading this (sorry it’s been so long) let me reiterate that I love my husband. I love my life. I’m very happy with what Jay and I have built together. He loves me and it shows. He loves the children. He is a good husband and a good father. We’ve stayed married for all the right reasons. We love each other and want to be in each other’s lives forever. We just have to figure out how to be comfortable with who we are without making the other person uncomfortable. And Jay, if you get into one of your depressive moods after reading this and say you are swearing off men, blogging, and everything that makes you who you are, I will not only hurt you, I’ll delete my blog. I will never again make you fried chicken or a pie of any sort. I have a right to put my feelings into words. Let these readers help me.
And thank you Eric for being one terrific guy.
17 Comments
August 19, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I tend to disagree with Eric (and with you)on some of the things, but would recommend a “play-mate” for Jay. I prefer that myself and would like to keep him if I started a romantic relationship. What works for some relationships might not work for all. so I don’t believe in standard rules.
This summer I read “The Ethical slut” by Dossie Easton and Catherine A. Liszt (a pseudonym of Janet Hardy). The title might scare you off, but I would highly recommend it. It is a great way to bring your thoughts and feelings to the surface so that you can reflect on them. It is about alternative ways of thinking relationship and very open for the diversity among human beings. It is also funny and easy to read and has some explicit sexual content as well.
You could also try to google the term “polyamori”.
Remember to take care of yourself! Maybe it would be better for both of you if Jay could share more of what he is doing, that you could be together in the hunt for a boyfriend for him (if that is really what he wants)?
August 19, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Wow! That’s a lot to think about. And Eric doesn’t have his own blog? He should. I’d like to read more of what he has to say. Thank you for sharing this.
That’s an interesting idea, having a playmate, friends with benefits. I think finding the right people for everyone to be comfortable with is the tricky part.
Good luck to both of you.
August 19, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Awwww… how nice. I’m flattered.
I’ll point out that I’ve been through a lot of this and have watched friends, etc. who have, so I’ve got experience with this. I’ll also say that just because I can UNDERSTAND the problem, doesn’t mean I’m so great at EXECUTING the solution mysef…
And… by the way… you should both try to stop talking in absolutes and going to the extreme, because it’s not reasonable and it won’t happen. Jay saying “I’ll just stop thinking about men, and I’ll delete my blog.” Won’t happen. Oh, maybe for a little while… but you can’t change who you are inside. Same for you — “I’ll delete my blog and never make you fried chicken again.” Ok, that was humorous actually (not sure if it was inteded that way, but it was…)
That’s the sort of mutually-ascending arms race that gets nowhere.
Eric
August 19, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Sorry if I’ve said some of this before, but…
opinion alert!
I don’t think it’s such a wise idea for Jay to go off by himself… it has nothing to do with gay/straight, but rather just a matter of fidelity. “Playing” in a 3-some is something you all to together, and is different. Going off alone with a guy is not really much different than if YOU go off with a guy. So… is he OK with you both finding your own guys and when he’s off with his, you can go off with yours? Somehow I don’t think so. And it might piss him off to read this (sorry Jay… no offense at all…), and maybe it might even be a bit of a JOLT to think about it this way (I’m sure he probably hasn’t thought about you going off with another guy, so it might be a bit shocking), but that is probably needed right about now… That casts a whole new light on it. If he can go off with some random guy, why not you? Now don’t get me wrong… i’m not advocating that and I’m not saying you want to… I’m just making a (perhaps shocking) statement to let Jay see it in a new light…
Now, on the other hand, playing together in a three some is completely different — that’s about the two of you sharing a common experience together.
At this point I’ll interject that human interactions are very complex things… the same exact situation (you two with a 3rd guy) can be everything from “WONDERFUL!” to “HORRIBLE!” just depending upon who the 3rd person is, and how the chemistry unfolds… so don’t necessarily go by your first experience either! You have to keep an open mind and get some experience.
And (perhaps another shocking point), I think Jay needs to second guess his point about doing it alone or even just having you watch… 2 people having sex with a 3rd watching is not something that works, as a general rule. And while “maybe” when it’s a guy (because guys are a bit different…) I’ve never heard of this working with a girl being the 3rd party… Maybe it’s happened, but I’ve heard people have won the multi-state Powerball lottery too but I’ve never actually seen it…
My point being that you will feel jealous, left out, bored, mad, (d) all of the above. And again, if he’s off with a guy and you’re sitting there watching, it’s still not about the two of you… so again I ask: is it OK for you to have sex with another man and have Jay sit back and watch? I bet he wouldn’t be too cool with that… then that’s his answer.
Next thing I’ll say… experiment. Have no expectations. You just might find that you really like something. Him too. When my wife and I play around, I get very turned on watching her orgasm… i never thought I’d like that, but it turns out it’s pretty darned great!
But I’d never have found that out if I didn’t keep an open mind… basically, we agree to just try things and see what happens… you can’t get mad or upset…. just chalk it up to experience. If you didn’t like it, then chalk it up to experience and don’t do it again… it’s all part of the process…
But I think in this case, Jay needs to understand that there are some tradeoffs here… you’ll let your man have sex with another man (that’s pretty darned big concession if you ask me!!!), but the caveat is that it’s always centered around the two of you sharing a common experience. In other words, you’re part of it all, and whatever he can do, you can do too… equality all the way around. I think he can venture out of his comfort zone a bit, considering you’re venturing out of yours… it’s give and take… what’s good for the goose is good for the gander…
Now that said, my personal opinion is that you ought to back off on the kissing thing… this is highly subjective, so no worries if you disagree and want to tell me to shut up…
But kissing is part of sex. You can’t have great sex and passion without kissing. If it doesn’t feel right in the moment, fine… but I wouldn’t write that off in the ground rules. Sorry to get graphic here, but, if someone’s sticking his cock in you and making you come, how is it OK that at least you didn’t kiss him?
You HAVE to have your ground rules clearly laid out before you do anything, so you both know what is and is not ok. And you both have to understand that it’s all new and sometimes the 3rd person unwittingly creates a situation that’s in the grey area and things unfold in a way that you’re not thrilled about, but you both need to really be cool and have a lot of latitude… and if kissing is off limits, then that needs to be very clear up front. But personally, I think that’s not a good rule and you should really give that some thought.
Oh… quick word of advice…
You may want to think about bi men, not gay men. Lots of reasons I can talk about at another time, but for a first-timer, the married-couple/gay-single thing is fraught with issues… (if the other guy is truly gay, then he’s only going to be interested in Jay and that sets up a bunch of issues with you feeling like the 3rd wheel on a bicycle, plus he’ll want more than the two of you can give, relationship-wise… whereas a bisexual male is more interested in BOTH of you, and will often be searching for a one-on-one relationship of his own, probably with a woman, and you two are merely “friends with benefits” which is FAR easier all the way around.)
Eric
August 19, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Eric, Eric, Eric. You sure do like to give advice. Are you a therapist? No seriously, I really appreciate your comments. So let me respond to some of them. You bring up stuff that I had not yet planned on blogging about. But, here goes.
Jay and I have talked about how he would feel if I was looking for a new man or how he would feel if someday, I fell in love with another man. To my disappointment, he just said that he was sure it might bother him a little but he didn’t seem all that upset at the thought. So, I dropped it not wanting to dwell on things that make me sad.
Also, I have thought of a bi-guy. I don’t think Jay is considering that though. He wants 100% gay. He’s not thinking of a 3-some. And even though I mentioned it, I’m not sure it’s something I would do right now. I’m not ruling it out for the future. I almost hate to say that.
You just don’t understand what kissing means to me I guess. Yes, I realize that if some guy is sucking your cock he’s probably kissed you too. But let me try to put it in a different perspective: I’ve heard that wives whose husbands have cheated say that it’s less painful if the affair was just about sex and not an actual relationship. Although that may not be a great example, that’s the best way for me to put it. I’ve heard before that some prostitutes won’t kiss their clients because it’s too intimate and sex is just a job.
So, thanks again. I look forward to your perspective because you have so much to say and you’ve been where we are.
August 20, 2008 at 5:25 pm
There’s no comment I can make that hasn’t already been said here, so I will just keep it simple.
I’m glad you’ve found someone who can give you guidance on your particular situation. I’ve always liked having the wisdom of those who’ve traveled the road before me. The solutions they found don’t always work for you, but it’s nice just to know they’ve seen the same scenery.
Good post.
August 20, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I also don’t have much more to add but to wish you luck in whatever decisions you make. Don’t let anyone question the reasons for you staying together, and thus question your marriage or the validity of your relationship…..sure it’s not perfect, no-one’s relationship truly is…but thats what you have. The time will come for you to decide on the boundaries of your relationship and for what goes and whats not….and that will be YOUR decision.
It will not be easy, and you prolly will have to be creative, but from what I get from both you and Jay is that you are connected and don’t let little things like “orientation”…:) shake you….
And finally on Eric, that was some really solid advice you gave. Its not going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and will prolly piss of a group of people, but I am with you on all you said….:D
August 21, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Am I late?
Seems there’s nothing left to comment on
I think I could never came with a full package of good advices like Eric, so thanks to him :-p
There are still a few things I wanna add:
1. You can’t separate kiss from sex most of the times but you can separate sex from kiss. I mean sex with kissing involved is dammed good yet you can still kiss the ones you love without having any sexual relation with them.
2. I think J really doesn’t know what he wants from a pure gay relationship. I don’t agree with 3-sum but may be friends with benefits is fine. Eric is right, gay guys are demanding and can’t be as understanding as bi guys considering you and J together. Personally I think J wants to try the sex then he wants a relationship with a guy and if he wants a boyfriend with all the obligations then it’s better to be honest with you and you two think of another solution like divorce.
August 22, 2008 at 8:17 am
I get concerned that Jay appears to be all over the map. It’s understandable, I’ve been there. But you need to consider your needs also.
Do you want this relationship to continue on for say 10 more years and then look around and wonder “what if”. The what if I had had time to find a man who can love me on a basis that Jay was never able too.
I’m only saying this because it’s what happened in my marriage. I stayed faithful for 30 years, but in the end I was completely frustrated, and I realize in many ways I did my ex wife no favors.
Anyway……I’ll continue to follow your and Jays journey…..
August 22, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Ang,
I’ll be the big downer in all of this revelry. What about your kids? Seriously, do you want them contemplating this kind of relationship when they are older? If your daughter came home in several years and sat down at the kitchen table with you and she told you about this wonderful guy she met but who happened to be gay or bi, he wasn’t sure really, and he wanted to marry her and she wanted to marry him because he was such a wonderful guy. Oh and they were considering having a 3 some or at least she was willing to let him sleep with other guys as long as she could watch, he didn’t kiss him and they didn’t really have an emotional relationship. What would your advice be to her? When you can answer that question honestly then you know what to do. Take care, I am thinking about you two.
August 23, 2008 at 7:52 am
Jennifer,
I understand your comments and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think you’re coming at it from the wrong angle. Nobody “plans” this stuff, it’s about taking what life throws at you and figuring out how to make it work, “on the fly.” Let’s take out the whole 3-some thing and insert “divorce” instead. Does that argument still hold? “You shouldn’t get divorced because do you want your kids growing up thinking they’ll marry this guy for a while and then just get a divorce later?” I mean, of course that’s absurd… nobody goes into a marriage looking for divorce, it’s what happens when “things happen” and you have to deal with them… if your spouse cheats and runs off with a girl half his age, whaddayagonnado? It doesn’t mean you PLANNED it… but when you’re now at that crossroad, you’ve gotta figure out a way to move forward.
So… do I think it’s a great plan to say “when I grow up, I’m gonna marry a gay man and have a 3-some so he can have a homosexual experience”??? Ummm…. no!
But when you’re swimming in a sea of sh*t, you need to figure out how to float…
My 3-some suggestions were just one approach. The more Anginae has written and commented, the more I see that it’s probably NOT something that would work for them. But, it’s worth taking the time and energy to have dialogue and explore options. It gets the creative juices flowing, and gets people thinking “outside the box.” Of course there’s no “magic bullet” here that would solve everything… but I figure (just my personal opinion) that discussing new ideas and options is a good thing. Fodder for discussion.
Of course it goes without saying that I think this should ALL be shielded from the kids. They’re young, impressionable, and probably don’t understand the nuances and details and what this all means, etc. They’re at an age where it’s better for them to just not know/understand what’s going on. My kids don’t know anything about my personal situation, and I intend to keep it that way.
Our oldest is 13 and this is the first year she will go into Christmas knowing there’s no Santa. She believed for 12 years. Stop and think about that. From the outside (if you were a space alien seeing this strange custom for the first time), you could be judgmental and say “This Christmas situation is bizarre. Why is everyone lying to their children about a fat man in a red suit? You’re raising your children with a lie. That doesn’t foster trust or respect.” blah blah blah… but obviously there are reasons and tradeoffs, and it’s all part of making childhood a magical time for children, and also because their brains aren’t developed — they can only handle so much. So they’re insulated and coddled, and the “real world” is exposed to them slowly over time, at a pace they can digest.
Somewhat similar analogy here… sure this is the current reality, but it doesn’t mean THEY’RE ready to handle it, or that it’s any of their business… They ought to be protected and insulated from this. ESPECIALLY during the turmoil while A & J figure this out for themselves… As a general rule, I believe it’s far better for parents to figure out the rough stuff on their own, then only approach kids when there’s a resolution/solution in play… I mean this as a generic statement, regarding anything… kids don’t need to be traumatized and stressed out… let the parents figure things out and shield the kids, and let the kids only see the calm seas…
So what’s my point to all this? Having a homosexual 3-some is like Santa Claus? Uh, no… *grin* I’m saying that A&J need to find a happy common ground that works for them if they want their marriage to work (which it sounds like they do). That should be done in private (without kids knowing). And 3-somes and/or Jay having gay sex may be part of the equation or it may not. But they need to churn through all of this stuff on their own, in private. But all of this is in context of the old “…when life hands you lemons, make lemonade” philosophy… it’s making the best of what you’ve got, and figuring out how to make it work now that you are where you are. I never said this was a great idea for everyone, and that it should be part of a kid’s growing-up strategy!
By the way… I think it’s good that you posted what you did… dissenting opinions are always good to keep people balanced and seeing all sides of a situation.
August 24, 2008 at 11:36 am
Eric,
Thank you for your well thought out comment. Ummm..I am one of those children who watched in horror as their parents marriage dissolved when my father came out to my mother but to no one else… at least right away. Like A&J they decided to stay together and they did. They tortured one another for another 30 years or so. My father had affairs and introduced my mother to many of his friends. When he died a couple of years ago my brother and I were not invited to the memorial held by his gay friends but we had invited them all to ours. My dad straddled both worlds rather well however it devastated and ruined my mother. She was absolutely devoted to him and believed that staying together was the best thing. And it may have been for both of them. My father could remain halfway in the closet, the devoted husband and father, my mother could hold her head high amongst her friends and family. It didn’t matter to them that everyone was talking about them behind their back. It was the worst thing they could have done to my brother and me. My father cheated on my mother. Yes she probably “agreed” to it because it was the only way she could keep my father. And she was too afraid to go out in the world on her own. She married him right out of college and had never been on her own or with another man. But it was cheating none the less and it had a huge impact on my relationships and my brother’s. There are currently three divorces between the two of us. They couldn’t hide their contempt for one another. They tried but it seeped through everyday life. I wish they had both had the courage to divorce and each find someone with whom they could have a loving and lasting relationship with. I’m sure that if they had divorced they would have remained very close friends. My mom never looked for another lover to take up with. I’m sure what was good for the goose would have been good for the gander but she didn’t. Plus one of them had to stay home with the kids. I wouldn’t wish their situation on anyone.
I know it wasn’t planned and I like both J & A. They are great people and I think they are handling this very well all things considered. A wants J to be happy so she is willing to let him sleep with another person. If J were straight but found himself uncontrollably attracted to blonds would A be so inclined to help him stray? I don’t think so.
I’m not suggesting that J just suck it up and act straight and never act on his desires. I think it would be sad if he lived the rest of his life denying who he is.
Once J does sleep with another guy all bets are off and you can’t take it back. Humans don’t like sharing their mates. It might work for some but from what I have read on their blogs it won’t work for them. My two cents. And they do need to figure it out on their own but since they have made this very private decision very public I will add my two cents.
August 25, 2008 at 11:48 am
Very, very interesting Jennifer. And I completely understand where you’re coming from.
Taking the gay out of things, I’ve seen couples stay together when they shouldn’t, to the detriment of the children… The guy was fooling around with other women while the wife knew but looked the other way “…for the sake of the kids.” (except all it did was screw up the kids)
I’m intimately familiar with all of this.
I think the “gay” thing has nothing to do with it, but can be separated out… it’s about cheating. From what you said above, I don’t know that the gay thing was even the crux of it, but rather that he was cheating and fooling around with other guys and having a “double life”, etc.
Not trying to sound holier-than-thou here, but although I’ve “come out” to my wife with my interests, I’m very much in lover with her, turned on by her, and faithful to her… I’m not doing anything that she’s not 100% OK with and involved with… I may go a year or more with no men in the picture… when we do have some fun, it’s the 2 of us together (because she’s OK with it and it turns her on… and she fully partakes 100%…) but that’s all OK. We get along great, love being together, and she always comes first… I’m not slinking around behind her back or carrying on alternate relationships that she’s not involved in…
Which brings me to the final comment… “Humans don’t like sharing their mates.” Dead on. And this is what my wife and I have learned. There’s no room in a marriage for a 3rd person. We play with guys simply as “friends with benefits”. No “relationship” sort of stuff because 3 just doens’t work… a marriage is made of 2 people, and 3 is a crowd, as a the saying goes.
August 25, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Eric, you are right the gay thing has little if anything to do with the whole thing. My dad was living two lives and even though my mother agreed to it she wasn’t happy about it and only did it because she felt she had no other option. Had it been a woman he was carrying on with she might very well have done the same thing but then she couldn’t have garnered all the sympathy she did.
August 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Oh my goodness, “emotionally hetero, sexually homo” LMAO. Great post, must remember to come back here often.
August 31, 2008 at 9:03 am
hi,
have been reading this blog for a while cos i am in the same situation. just makes me sad cos doesn’t seem too positive. for a moment i thought we had hope…
take care of yourself anginae. i sometimes think of starting a blog but i get too sad and i push it away.
August 31, 2008 at 7:22 pm
To UnNamed: You do have hope. Read more of my posts. Love is all you need really. It’s not going to be positive all the time. This blog is where I can get all the shit out so it doesn’t just swirl around in the home.
Good luck.